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 Post subject: Let's talk Physics
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:13 pm
Posts: 195
So over the years before BAM, physics was the hot button topic in the VPin community. More so how FP has had floaty and non-realistic physics compared to VPX. My question is why? Although BAM has helped in doing that, there's still aways to go which i believe can be rectified.

We know that Newton are the physics being used in FP and someone prior had said Ravarcade looked at the latest version of Newton and that it wouldn't make that much difference to incorporate that, so we continue with the same set.

However I feel that because of the lack of table authors building FP tables for cabinet use, physics have been left to the wayside.

the way physics are handled are a very complex set of equations. I know George and smoke have created a variety of physics for their respective tables but I wonder can they be better?

I've messed with physics myself and while I've only changed gravity, mass and dampening, there are other elements like the elastic coefficients and material coefficients. So i'm wondering are these elements being tweaked and adjusted? has there been a deep dive into FP physics?

Table author nFozzy wrote a great article in regards to the physics in VPX and gave a great breakdown. I'm wondering if this has been read through and maybe some of the elements can be translated into FP?

I definitely want to deep dive and test and retest physics but lack of time is my downfall. So I post this query as a dialogue: Can FP physics be better improved?

Here are the links to the articles:

https://vpinball.com/nfozzy-physics-how-to-part-1/

https://vpinball.com/nfozzy-physics-how-to-part-2/

https://vpinball.com/nfozzy-physics-how-to-part-3/

Also I would suggest to say George H who i know works extensively on physics, if you have VPX play Diner, Jackbot and the latest Skitso Mod 2.03 of Twilight Zone as reference tables.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk Physics
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 2695
Location: Arkansas, USA
I don't know why FP ended up with the physics it has. It was before my time. Maybe having 3D graphics was a higher priority?

"However I feel that because of the lack of table authors building FP tables for cabinet use, physics have been left to the wayside."

I don't think there is a need to build tables exclusively for cabinet use. You can add any FP table to a cabinet. Rav provided a BAM option to remove the HUD which should be sufficient to allow use on a cab (as far as I know anyway; I don't have a pincab). Personally, I don't see a connection between pincabs and physics. The physics works the same whether you have a desktop or a pincab.

While physics is basically a set of equations, I don't know anything about equations. In fact, I am not good at all with Math. I know how the parameters affect the outcome I want and adjust them purely by intuition.

I set up the parameters in a base XML file I got from Malifica and have tweaked it over the years. I don't usually "deep dive" into something unless there is a need. I needed to on "Independence Day 1.1" because I had trouble getting the ramps to perform because they are steep. I figured out the problems were caused by several gates on each ramp. The ball slows down a lot when it hits a gate. I lowered the settings for gates so they allowed the ball to pass more quickly and it led to acceptable performance of the ramps. Then on "Robots Invasion" I had trouble with the way the ball bounced off stationary targets. I figured out that I could increase the softness and make the ball bounce less.

That is how I operate. I suppose I should try some VP tables but haven't done so in years.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk Physics
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:07 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:13 pm
Posts: 195
Actually George it does make a difference. Playing in desktop is completely different than playing in cabinet or rotated screen. Desktop in FP offers a variety of cameras and these cameras change your perspective of how a ball should feel or react in a real pin.

FP is more than a video game and should be looked at like a simulator.

I get that you change the parameters based on intuition but I think more needs to be put into it. Yes not everyone plays in a pincab but a lot of people do. I feel that making sure the physics and how the ball plays and reacts in cabinet mode should be taken into consideration.

the biggest takeaway is giving the ball weight. Last night before filming my latest video, I messed around with slam's physics on DSA as well as table element strengths like the slingshots and bumpers. I upped mass to 85, gravity to 7400 and damping to .85. I know smoke has way higher values (mass="160.0" gravity="9810.0" damping="0.80") however it's more than just these factors.

the kinetic and elastic coefficients also need to be raised and changed dramtically. I messed with a few and did see the improvements albeit still more tinkering needed. Table slope also plays a big factor as well but I think all of these factors need to be adjusted. These are from smoke's physics I think but they seem to be the same on every table.:


<!-- Primary Material Types -->
<metalMat softnessCoef="0.15" elasticCoef="0.20" staticFriction="0.02" kineticFriction="0.01"></metalMat>
<plasticMat softnessCoef="0.15" elasticCoef="0.20" staticFriction="0.02" kineticFriction="0.01"></plasticMat>
<woodMat softnessCoef="0.15" elasticCoef="0.20" staticFriction="0.02" kineticFriction="0.01"></woodMat>
<rubberHardMat softnessCoef="0.1" elasticCoef="0.50" staticFriction="0.11" kineticFriction="0.10"></rubberHardMat>
<rubberIntMat softnessCoef="0.1" elasticCoef="0.60" staticFriction="0.11" kineticFriction="0.10"></rubberIntMat>
<rubberSoftMat softnessCoef="0.1" elasticCoef="0.70" staticFriction="0.11" kineticFriction="0.10"></rubberSoftMat>

<!-- Object Specific Material Settings -->
<gateMat softnessCoef="0.15" elasticCoef="0.24" staticFriction="0.00001" kineticFriction="0.00001"></gateMat>
<kickerMat softnessCoef="0.15" elasticCoef="0.24" staticFriction="1.0" kineticFriction="0.80"></kickerMat>
<rampMat softnessCoef="0.15" elasticCoef="0.05" staticFriction="0.01" kineticFriction="0.001"></rampMat>
<plungerMat softnessCoef="0.15" elasticCoef="0.55" staticFriction="0.15" kineticFriction="0.10"></plungerMat>
<spindiskMat softnessCoef="0.15" elasticCoef="0.20" staticFriction="1.50" kineticFriction="2.00"></spindiskMat>

I think these values need to be adjusted and tested heavily to give more realism. I'm not saying that they haven't been I just feel maybe not enough and again maybe because not enough people that are into pincabs are still into Future Pinball. They've all migrated to VPX. And while there has been a resurgence in popularity thanks to Slam, Terry and I will say my own touting of it on the FB groups, there are still gonna be the people that say the FP physics suck and aren't as good as VPX. Additionally you'll have the people that won't like FP because of the lack of DOFlinx support.

George I would say please download the latext VPX and get it running. Let me know if you need help then try the 3 tables I mentioned as physics reference points (Diner, Jackbot and the latest Twilight Zone). You'll see the huge difference which then maybe can assist you in adjusting your phyiscs.

Dynamic Flippers were tremendous but i feel more can be done.

I will also continue to tinker and mess with things. Since I've started on DSA I'll keep tinkering and then post to get feedback.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk Physics
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:13 pm
Posts: 195
Also a shameless plug to my video :D

https://youtu.be/YxFTulUOyKY


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk Physics
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 2695
Location: Arkansas, USA
Since I don't have a pincab, there is no way I can test to make the tables I mod to make them perform the way you want. You are welcome to mod my physics any way you want. I suppose I could send tables I mod to you to do your physics and publish desktop/pincab versions.


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